Small Businesses Need Customer Research Too! A conversation with Justin Chen, co-founder of PickFu

Every marketing book tells you to get closer to your customer. And honestly, we don't really need to be told that! But it's not always so easy to do that as part of your day-to-day - particularly if "customer research" means in-person focus groups or Voice of the Customer projects.

Fortunately, getting customer insights is now much easier, with online platforms making it accessible to businesses with limited resources. And on this episode, I'm talking to Justin Chen, co-founder of one such platform, called PickFu.

We discuss the types of questions online customer insights can be helpful with. We talk about combining this approach with A/B testing. And, of course, we look at how AI may change the landscape.

Key Takeaways:

• Consumer research can be used for small decisions, like taglines or product photos
• Save your actual customer feedback for elements that are critical to the user experience
•  Smaller B2B companies can now level the playing field by tapping into the quick-feedback data
• A/B Testing can be problematic with low-traffic businesses. Supplementing with consumer insights can reduce the risk; and provide written feedback

Notes:
Justin mentioned two podcasts that he listens to:
Lenny's Podcast about product management
Hidden Brain about human behavior

Transcript

Customer research, or consumer insights, has come a long way since the old focus groups with a one-way mirror. Or the very structured “voice of the customer” type interviews that I’ve personally worked with in the past. You can now access customer research almost on demand. Asking a targeted group of online panel members for feedback on product names, webpages and images. And it’s also accessible to small businesses in a way that hasn’t been possible until recently.

Today on The Marketing Mix, I’m talking with Justin Chen, cofounder of PickFu, which is a platform that effectively democratizes customer research, We’ll be talking about the ways it can be used to help smaller businesses who may have limited reach or a less accessible audience. And how it can be used as an alternative, or supplement to A/B testing. Which is A/Beloved part of marketing, but one that isn’t always accurate. 

[Music Intro]

Steve Cummins: My guest today on The Marketing Mix is Justin Chen, who is the co founder of PickFu, which is a platform that provides DIY enterprise grade consumer research. And so today we're going to be talking about how customer insights can be a useful tool for any B2B company. Justin, thanks for joining me on The Marketing Mix.

Justin Chen: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Steve. 

Steve Cummins: Great. So let's kick off. We're going to talk about customer research, particularly as it relates to business to business for people that aren't that familiar with it. Can you just explain what it is and the value it can bring to particularly to a smaller business?

Justin Chen: Yeah. So when we talk about consumer research, it's gathering insight from your target audience. So maybe you're selling to either moms who are stay at home or something like that, and you're trying to sell a product to them and you want to get into their heads around what are their issues or would they be interested in a certain value proposition of a product that you're selling?

And so, Being able to gather that information early before going to market, or even as you've gone to market to kind of tailor your approach is really important. And so you can think of this as, we've all seen focus groups in the media, and that's kind of the traditional way to gather this kind of stuff.

Or maybe you've done like a phone survey. either political or not political, those are all different forms of doing consumer research and, companies are trying to tap into how are you thinking and like, how are you going to respond to certain stimuli? 

Steve Cummins: Yep. Got it. So I think that's an interesting point, right? We think of customer insights as being phone surveys, maybe the focus groups, you're in the mall, you get pulled into a darkened room somewhere. but obviously now with, with SaaS and with software, with apps, it's a lot more self service. So in terms of, from A/B2B perspective, if we were to use consumer insights from that, what is the online, the digital version of focus groups?

Justin Chen: So the way that we're approaching it is kind of a very short form easy online surveys. And so what we allow our customers to do, and our customers are all kinds of different businesses selling to ranges of other businesses to also consumers. And they write a single question, for example which business name do you like?

You know, this is probably a common question that every entrepreneur has gone through. which business name do you like? You have A/Bunch of different ideas. And what happens on our platform is we'll reach out and we'll go find your target audience. So whoever they might be, maybe it's by demographics or a particular interest, but we'll go out and ask them to vote on which one they like will pay them.

And they'll also give written explanations. Why, in addition to demographic information. And so this is all very fast. usually 15 minutes to 30 minutes. It'll be done. You'll have 50 people responding. And what's great is not only do you get this quantitative, winner, but you also have this qualitative written feedback around like, oh, I don't like this because it reminds me of, something negative or I don't like this color.

And so it's a lot of actionable feedback that you can use to then improve on your decision. or have more confidence in going with that decision because you've read the rationale that people have given. 

Steve Cummins: And I can imagine, some people would say, well, that, that's great, but you don't know who my customers are, right?

I have my list of customers. I can go ask them, why should I go ask A/Bunch of strangers? So, so how do you manage that with your platform?

Justin Chen: I think. Every business should do a combination of gathering feedback from their own customer list and then also doing targeted the, you know target consumer insights.

I think the difficult thing about working with your own customers is. While you can definitely mine data from them, you don't want to barrage them with the amount of questions that you probably have on a day to day basis running your business, right? Like, you can't ask them everything, as you're working on marketing copy or whatever it is, they would be kind of annoyed.

You're the one running the business, why do you keep asking me to make your decisions? Whereas when you use a service like ours, these people are paid to answer. And so they're financially incentivized to do a good job and like to give you to give you honest feedback. So it's a good pairing.

I think if you periodically gather insights from your customers and even at the tail end, maybe you iterate with a service like PicKFu on something. And then when you get to some final. versions that you do want to get in front of your actual customers. Sure, go ahead and reach out to them. But I would kind of use it sparingly so that you don't, over overstay your welcome, so to speak. part of the reason we built this actually was, as entrepreneurs, we were asking our friends and family all the time for feedback as you know as anyone does. And. They soon get sick of giving you feedback and it starts becoming less and less useful because they're tired of answering all the same questions.

Didn't you already ask me this or or they'll say like, best or whatever it is. So that's the reason we built this in the 1st place was so that we could more quickly iterate on things without. You know, bothering our friends and family, brothering our actual customers as well.

Steve Cummins: You mentioned a couple of things already, right? Product names. I do a lot on Reddit and there's a logo design thread on Reddit where a lot of people post three versions of logos and say, hey, give, give me your feedback on this. Maybe give some other examples of ways people are, are using this, the types of tests they're doing, because, once I started talking to you, I just, I had like a dozen things that I could possibly test doing this.

So maybe some examples from, 

Justin Chen: Definitely some of the bread and butter ones are business names and logos. In fact, our own logo. for pick food. We went to 99 designs. We crowdsourced A/Bunch of different options. And when you do 99 designs, you kind of get a lot of different variations from different designers.

And then we ran a PickFu to kind of whittle down which one people liked and kind of like which one aesthetically look better. so that's a really common thing, even choosing domain names. so there's, there's always a lot of options are making quite early where you want to make sure that things resonate. So perhaps you're choosing A/Business name and like, you're selling golf equipment or something like that. And you want to see if golfers think that this is a good name for it. Right? And so that's a really good way to see if, Oh, okay.

Like I get the pun you're trying to use or something like that, right? Like you want to see if it resonates. there's also ways that you can use it where you're not comparing things. So you could also just ask an open ended question. And we'll see a lot of people doing this early when they're doing idea validation.

So maybe you're developing something for golfers and you want to ask them like, Oh, what are your biggest frustrations that you have finding tee times or something like that? And people will just give open-ended feedback. you can mind read through all of that. We actually have an AI summarization tool, which will kind of read through all those written explanations and also kind of summarize the themes that they see.

And then you could actually do like a chat GPT style prompt probe those results as well. So it's a very fun way to, ask your poll essentially like, Oh, okay, well, dig into this, this theme a little bit more and then it'll pull insights from all the respondents. So, really open ended stuff.

You don't have to have finished products to test. Like it could, it could just be, I've seen napkin sketches as well. Like, Hey, I'm thinking about designing this product. Someone will draw it out, take a picture of it, put it up, and people will respond to it. So, it's like walking into a coffee shop, right and you want to get feedback on stuff.

It might be open ended, you might have a drawing, or you might have a more polished product that you want to get feedback on. 

Steve Cummins: And the advantage Compared to walking into a coffee shop because you don't actually have to talk to anybody, 

Justin Chen: exactly.

Steve Cummins: A lot of people don't want to deal with that. 

So one thing I do want to dig into though is A/B testing. Sure. You know, marketers love talking about A/B testing. Yep. We want to A/B test everything. I think it's particularly A/Big thing with, with email and websites. But the reality is for most small businesses, you actually don't have enough data to do A/B testing properly.

And I think some of the, the email tools are really doing a disservice because they have this A/B feature and they say, Oh, we, we send the first 20 percent to two different, two different emails to the first 20 percent and then we pick. Yeah. If you've only got a list of a hundred people, it's not statistically significant, right?

So, any thoughts on A/B testing versus customer insights and, maybe how you can combine the two. 

Justin Chen: Yeah, we, we definitely see a lot of people using kind of our version of split testing, which is slightly different. They'd be testing because in actually be testing, you're always only showing one option to any given audience member.

So they're only seeing A or B. In ours, we call it more split testing because they are seeing both and then they're asked to choose and then give her an explanation. So it's not quite exactly the same, but in the situations like you're saying, yeah. Where you don't have a lot of data. Maybe you're trying to test out website layouts, but you don't have a ton of traffic.

Your only option is to probably buy ads, which is then going to be really expensive. So, we will actually see a lot of people using PickFuto do website layout testing before they even implement it. Right? Because you could actually start testing your designs. From your designer before actually building it which will actually save a lot of rework, save a lot of development costs so that you don't have to actually implement it before seeing that people don't even like it.

Right? so we'll actually find a lot of agencies testing things on behalf of clients because they're kind of doing this early design work. Maybe it's a web design or email design, whatever it is. And they're testing out these things so that their client doesn't have to test it, or maybe they don't have the traffic or the audience size to do it.

So I think it's  good, it's not exactly a one to one replacement because obviously live traffic and live sales are going to be, A/Better indicator of true success. But I think it's a really good proxy to set you in the right direction. especially if you're testing out different creative directions.

And so maybe perhaps you're working with a designer and you're either doing a website or an email redesign and you want to test out, like maybe a dark motif or a light one, or, modern versus classical, like these kinds of things were like, creatively, they're very different. and you want to see if it's still going to resonate with your audience.

Like those, those are really good to do early because a lot of times you don't even want to live A/B testings because it's confusing to your, your audience if you're constantly A/B testing and they come back later. And they see that. Wait, you know what happened? Like the layout is completely different. Or this offer is different than the one I saw previously.

It gets very confusing if you're always live. A/B testing on your own audience. So that's another benefit of kind of pre testing before going live with things. 

Steve Cummins: Yeah, that's a good point. So you do that at the first stage, and then maybe A/B testing is sort of a A longer term thing, it's funny. So I use the BBC news app quite a bit.

And last week I went on and it said, Oh, we're beta testing a new version. If you'd like to use it. So I switched over to that, played around with that. And, being the marketer, I'm constantly thinking, I like this. They should do this different. So I have all this feedback, but at no point did they ask me for my feedback.

And I'm sure behind the scenes, they're doing all sorts of analytics as to, how long did he spend on the page? Where did he move all of that? But as a user, I found it frustrating. It's like, I want to be your guinea pig. I want to give you feedback. So is that another advantage or difference between the two that with customer insights, you are actually getting that specific feedback, which from one person maybe isn't valid, but if you get it from a hundred people and you see some common themes, you can pull it out.

Justin Chen: 

Yeah, exactly. I mean, kind of using that digital focus group as an analogy again, is that you're trying to, you're trying to gather more than just like the final result, right? And this is the same issue if you were to use ads as a testing mechanism. So if you're, if you're buying ads on different variations.

Sure you're gonna see the, the raw overall performance, but you're really not gonna understand why people are clicking on a certain one or, or why it's one sucks and one is better. So using this kind of platform or any kind of like digital focus group or kind of a user interview kind of platform, you're, you're gonna be able to hear their explanation sometimes even dig into it more.

A new feature we recently launched is a screen recording actually. And so. You could actually ask people and this has been popular on the web for, for many, on many different platforms, but basically you could have people walk through an experience, maybe, hey, go check out my website and try the check try adding something to the cart and just have them talk through You know, how easy it was where did they have to click?

What was distracting to them? Maybe you've got like weird pop ups and they're like getting super annoyed. And so they're talking it out. And so just hearing people verbally talk through their process can be extremely illuminating. If you were able to do it with the BBC the beta tests, I'm sure you would have had a lot of thoughts as you were going through it that you just wanted to speak out loud that I'm sure their, their UX team would be fascinated to hear.

Steve Cummins: Yeah. And so that's an interesting feature because, I've been involved in the past where you, you basically send out a product manager or product developer to sit with customers. And, and watch them do it and go through it, which is hugely time consuming, cost prohibitive, typically. so, so the DIY approach is pretty interesting with that. 

So you mentioned a couple of times about, the, the other option is to run ads. And, I guess there's two parts to that. Are you talking about optimizing your ad copy through Customer Insights?

Or are you actually talking about using ads as another way to get customer feedback? 

Justin Chen: Yeah. So, of course, you're whenever you run any kind of paid ads, you're ready to optimize the ads. But sometimes some people will actually test out things that aren't necessarily supposed to be ads, but using ads to test it out.

So maybe let's use a mobile game example. Maybe you're testing out. Different app icons that you want to use for your game. And so you could construct an ad that has, you know this version of the app icon or like another version and just kind of like see which one your target audience is clicking on and maybe that's going to be the most engaging one.

But again, you may not understand why. And so instead, a lot of gaming companies use us and they'll use it to test out which app icon is more preferable. And because any competitive marketplace, like the app store, like the iOS app store, Google play any marketplace, really. It's really drawing that attention to get that click, right?

And so that's why ads are one alternative to use to kind of gauge this performance. But another one would be doing a test on PickFu., 

Steve Cummins: And I guess the other danger with using ads is it may work in an ad for a different reason than. You know, a user actually experiencing it.

So, yeah, I guess it's, it's a different approach. 

We’ve talked about how this works, I think for small businesses, particularly, there's always that feeling of, okay, I have a limited budget and I can spend it on Google ads. I can spend it on, bringing in an SEO consultant or whatever. How do you justify spending at least some of that money on customer insights and how do you explain the ROI? 

Justin Chen: So to your first point, we try to make it as affordable as possible.

We start at a dollar per response and you could do as little as 15 responses. So 15 bucks will get you 15 people to react to whatever it is in your names or your logos and give written explanations why. So I would think that's already pretty affordable. but what we're trying to do is prevent rework or depending here in your business that you might have inventory risk, like for maybe you're stocking actual physical products.

And we'll have a lot of people who sell it either in retail or online. And before they buy $50,000 worth of products from their manufacturer, they want to make sure that their product is going to resonate with their target audience, maybe that it does better, that it looks better than the competitions.

Or that they want to choose the right color variations, maybe you're buying a lot of different colors of diaries and you want to make sure that should I be, should it be black or white or purple or whatever it is, getting that kind of feedback early is going to financially improve your position in terms of, okay, well, I know everyone likes this color, so I'm not going to be holding the bag at the end of the day with this weird zebra color pattern just because I think that's what's cool.

Doesn't mean that, my target audience is going to buy it. And I think we'll all we've probably all seen this when you're shopping on Amazon or something like that, and you have different color variations. And some of them are heavily discounted compared to others. And that's the bad inventory at work, right?

Because they didn't choose the right quantity amounts. Maybe they shouldn't be selling that variation. And now they're having to heavily discount this. So there's a real financial risk making these decisions incorrectly without the data. I think in eCommerce, it's more of a direct line where there's, you're putting money out up front.

But at the same time, a lot of our game companies do it because they don't want to, they don't want to do rework. They don't want to test. They don't want to develop a character or a game UI. That all of a sudden, by the time you get to the end, you're getting reviews that's like, oh, like this character is ugly or like this game UX is clunky in the reviews, the public reviews, right?

And now you're having to go back and rework the game, but if you had just gathered that feedback as you were developing it, now you're going to launch, you're going to get like better reviews. You're not going to have to go back and do that work again. So, it can be kind of difficult to measure ROI for different businesses, but the whole point being that you're trying to minimize risk.

With the relative fixed costs, right? Even if you were to do things with ads, there's kind of like a variable cost. You're not sure what Google or Facebook is going to do with your ad budget. but ours, it's, 15 bucks will get you 15 responses. That's it, you know? And so you can do those, do that as much as you, as you're comfortable with, with your budget, but at least you're going to get some data that will limit your downside for whatever decision you're making. 

Steve Cummins: Yeah. And you're right at that price point, we're not even talking about, about ROI, but I could imagine, some of your clients are doing more

Justin Chen: And it can scale up. Like if you're, if you're trying to do 500 responses and you're targeting like a very niche audience, then it is going to be more expensive, but you need to weigh that against, well, what if I get this decision wrong?

What is the negative impact going to be? and for a lot of businesses, it's quite severe. 

Steve Cummins: For sure. And, and that's, even though we're talking about it from a marketing perspective, that's almost not a marketing cost, right? So it's, whereas a lot of marketing is, okay, I'm spending this amount to get this amount of leads or this amount of revenue here, it's almost a safety net or, or a, a safety play of we're investing this money so that we don't go down the wrong path.

Justin Chen: I guess uh, depending on where you are, if you, if like the Peloton. The, the ad from a couple years ago, I don't know if you remember this whole snafu, but there was the, the woman who looked, I think her husband like bought her a Peloton and like it had a huge negative reaction.

But like those kinds of like ad creative and message resonance testing things are very popular on PickFu. So, kind of showing those videos or even if you're testing it earlier, you could have storyboarded that and like, played out the concept and I'm sure people would have negatively reacted to just the premise of these things.

So, from a marketing standpoint, there's a lot of things that we all see cringeworthy campaigns. And it's like, did they talk to anyone before launching 

How did this pass so many people? And you don't want to be, you don't want to be one of those people, especially as a small business owner.

Like you're, you're probably not running as many campaigns as they are. Each one is so much more meaningful that you want to make sure that you're not tone deaf on on your messaging. And I think as, especially as a founder, like you can be so emotionally tied to like, man, that was such a cool, clever.

I just came up with the most clever marketing idea. Like this is, this is going to hit home. And you ask everyone else I don't know what you're talking about. This is not, it's not resonating with me. So, well, 

Steve Cummins: And I think the other advantage is. In founder led companies or actually any, if you're a CEO, oftentimes people won't tell you that they disagree with you, depending on the culture of the company or who they are, whereas this is third party information, right?

So it can be presented as, Hey, it's not me, but these, these people are saying X

So if you're working for a founder or CEO and you need to give the feedback on maybe a harebrained idea, don't let it come from you. Have it come from, this panel of people and it's like, Hey, I just asked, I asked the strangers and this is what they said.I'm just a messenger. 

I think  that can be a useful angle to play for sure. 

This would not be a legitimate podcast in 2023 if we didn't talk about AI, right? There always has to be an AI question. I have seen people recommend ChatGPT to write customer scripts, to, build buyer personas.

people think AI and chatbots can do everything. I'm a little bit skeptical, but clearly it is going to change the way we do marketing. Any thoughts on either how it's going to change. Or maybe you're already seeing changes in in customer insights because of AI, 

Justin Chen: We've experimented a lot with AI, we're very tech forward company.

So the first thing that we've done is integrated into our product, as I mentioned. So we do have a summary sentiment analysis. Yes. We’re trying to essentially build a research assistant for you. So, where you may not have the budget to go to a market research consultant or have a consumer sized team, but hopefully our AI based research assistant can kind of get you part of the way there.

So that's one thing that we're trying to do with AI. we do see a lot of marketers using AI to do, like you say, generate marketing. Copy even creatives. Now I think our perspective is that at the end of the day, real consumers are still the ones that you're trying to reach. You know, they're your buyers.

They're your ones who are actually responding to your marketing campaign. So even if you are going to use AI you still do need to measure the effectiveness against actual people. And so the pairing of a generation plus human feedback, I think, is a powerful one because. You know, maybe now you're able to create 10 times faster.

That doesn't mean you should put all that stuff out. In fact, don't please don't please make sure it passes some kind of human vetting to make sure that, okay, like this weird thing that I, this image that I generated with DALL-E, like makes sense or like, is not offensive or whatever it is. Like, make sure it resonates with your audience.

So I think it's great to pair AI with actual human feedback. 

Steve Cummins: Microsoft uses this phrase. Oh, I think it's that product name, right? Copilot. Yes. And I think that really says everything you need to know about this stuff.

It's absolutely something to help you do something. Not just, not just churn it out and you, and you have to be aware of it. And I, with ChatGPT, like I have people saying to me, Oh, I got to learn how to prompt ChatGPT and all that. And I say, honestly, give it a few months.

I don't think ChatGPT is going to be it. I think it's going to be. All of these individual apps, either existing apps that you use now as an integrator or - podcasting is a perfect example. I have a couple of apps that I use that are specifically designed for podcasting, for editing and what have you, and I'm sure they're built on Chat GPT, but I don't have to deal with that, right?

Justin Chen: I think you're right. I mean, right now we're, we're seeing this proliferation of. AI specific apps and, or people like with the lists of chat, GPT prompts, all this kind of stuff. I think it's what we're going to end up is we're going to be using the same products that we were already using, but now AI is just going to be baked in to everything.

Like the expectation is just that AI is baked into. Something that you're doing, because there's probably some small aspect that can kind of be improved with it. but I don't think we're going to have to go and do it ourselves. Like you said, which actually constructing like 10 paragraph long prompts or whatever it is, because the companies that are integrating it are doing that work for us. Right. And they're doing the deep research to see like, what's the optimal prompt to get this particular use case around editing transcripts or whatever it is. 

Steve Cummins: And I think for people like you and I, it's, it's fun and interesting to play around with chat GPT or, or some of the other models, but that's not how I actually envisage doing the job.

Steve Cummins: S oyou are working with businesses, right? So you are effectively a B2B company? Yes, but I'm guessing a lot of your customers are B2C, right? Or a lot of the use cases that they're working with with PickFu are B2C. Any thoughts on the difference or the similarities between marketing for B2B versus B2C?

Justin Chen: I guess the difference I've seen is that marketing to businesses businesses generally tend to be, the business customer tends to be a little bit more analytical in terms of their buying pattern than general consumers general consumers, a little bit more emotion driven and we all as consumers ourselves, like we can, we can probably resonate with that.

Whereas with businesses, maybe you're spending. your company's money, or even if it's your own money, you're looking for an R. O. I. you're looking for data points or customer case studies to to justify a certain purchasing decision. So I think that's where your website and your marketing efforts are going to have to differ in terms of like, well, what are the proof points you're putting out there for A/Business to analyze versus.

What emotional benefits are you putting out there for a consumer? but I do think that they are somewhat converging because I do think that more business apps like are becoming more consumer like both in their usage, kind of like their look and feel and their, their ease of use. and also how they market to people because.

There are so many businesses now that are small businesses, right? There may be there under five people under 10 people. And these are not necessarily people who have had traditional business education or experience, but they are running legitimate businesses and quite large ones. And so. they're, they're making decisions with a mix of those consumer emotions.

And, maybe not a sophisticated business and analysis, but still like some business mindedness. So I think it's important to kind of keep that in mind. 

Steve Cummins: Yeah, I think it's an interesting point, cause you often come across this, well, you're selling to people, right, whether it's business or consumers sell to people, but the mindset you're in when you're doing  a business purchase, is different, right?

I like your point about analytical versus emotional, but I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of if it's a small business, those points are coming much closer, right? If it's a small business, it is more emotional because this is your livelihood, your, your baby, whatever it may be.

So it's a good way of thinking about it.

So this stuff is changing all the time with or without AI. It's changing quickly. How, how do you keep up to speed with, the trends and the technology? 

Justin Chen: Actually a lot of podcasts. So I do consume a lot of different kinds of podcasts, mostly business tech type things or like, product management that kind of stuff.

Steve Cummins: Any favorite ones you'd like to mention? Give people some resources here. 

Justin Chen: Sure. On the product management side for software, I love the Lenny podcast. there's also a newsletter for that. So that's a great one. That's kind of for, for techie folks. one of my favorite kind of general consumer ones is Hidden Brain.

Which I think is an NPR one, but it kind of goes into the psychology and like behavioral economics of, of why people make decisions. And so those are always fun. what else is a good one? Uh, those are the two that are coming off the top of my head. I listened to A/Bunch of other like health ones.

I think podcasts are a fascinating way to learn and great way to multitask while you're driving or doing dishes or whatever it is, you might as well get a little bit of knowledge. 

Steve Cummins: I agree. It feels like, you're not wasting time and you feel like you can graze, right? So. You know, to your point, yeah, I listen to marketing ones, but I listen to football ones and politics and all that.

Right? Yeah. So another one I listened to is, is I listen to one on whiskey. So I'll use that as a segueto my last question. Nice. one of the reason I started doing this podcast is 'cause  I like chatting to marketers, right?

And I like to feel like if we were doing this face to face, we'd be doing it over a coffee or over a cocktail. So, if we were face to face, what would be your drink of choice? 

Justin Chen: If it was a cocktail, it'd probably be an old fashioned or a Bourbon. if it was a Beer, I'd have a hazy IPA. Uh, so depending, depending on the mood and maybe the weather one of those drinks.

Steve Cummins: Gotcha. I agree with you a hundred percent on the old fashioned and I disagree a hundred percent on the IPA, but that's okay. That's what it's all about. Well, hopefully the next time we get together, we'll be able to grab a drink and, and actually do this in person.

But I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us and I look forward to catching up with you soon. 

Justin Chen: Yeah. Had a lot of fun. Thanks Steve. Thank you.