Google Ads and PPC: Building a Great Campaign w/ Katie Kingsbery of RevKey

Too many start-ups and small businesses waste their precious resources running Pay Per Click (PPC) campaigns without linking them to activity that drives new business. It’s easy to get dazzled by vanity metrics, instead of targeting prospects who are ready to make a decision. 

So on this episode, we’re talking about the best way to approach Google Ads and PPC advertising, with Katie Kingsbery, Senior Account Manager at RevKey.  

Katie discusses the mechanics of Google Ads, the importance of keyword selection and ad copy, and the value of tracking conversions that are valuable to the business. Making sure that your campaigns are optimized to reach people further down the funnel, who are ready to buy. Katie  also shares tips for finding the right agency to manage Google Ads campaigns. 

Katie has seen this business from all angles - starting out on the media side with Tribune and The Wall Street Journal; then in the "belly of the beast" as an account manager at Google, and now with an agency, helping small businesses win in the PPC game. 

Key Takeaways: 

• The Live Auction: It’s not only about having the best product; the placement of ads is determined by a live auction system that takes into account both the bid amount and the relevancy of the ad. 
• The Foundations of a Successful Campaign: Two primary things to consider are keyword selection and ad copy, to reach users who are most likely to be ready to take a specific action, optimizing ROI. 
• Offline vs. Online Tracking: Businesses can link offline interactions (like phone calls) to online ad spend, ensuring they have a full understanding of their campaign's success. 
• Finding the Right Agency: Look for someone with transparency in pricing, and who doesn't make unrealistic guarantees about lead numbers. 

Where Katie keeps up with the latest in media and marketing: 

Media Post
AdAge
Search Engine Land
Rand Fishkin, CEO at SparkToro
Kara Swisher / Formerly of All Things Digital (WSJ) 

Timestamps 

00:02:20           How Google Ads work and the auction system 
00:05:00           Using Google Ads for a small businesses 
00:08:00           Importance of keyword selection and ad copy in Google Ads 
00:13:40           Counting revenue, not clicks 
00:23:50           Taking a campaign from good to great 
00:29:30           Finding the right agency to help you succeed 
00:31:40           Pricing models for PPC and SEO agencies 
00:33:30           Recommended resources 

Transcript

Google Ads and PPC: Building a Great Campaign w/ Katie Kingsbery of RevKey

Steve Cummins: After our look at the basics of Search Engine Optimization in the last episode, today we turn our focus to PPC or Pay Per Click ads, PPC primarily refers to the ads you see on social media, and on search queries. Every time someone clicks on the ad, you pay a few pennies, or dollars, to facebook or twitter or Google.

I’m talking with Katie Kingsbery from RevKey, and we focus specifically on Google Ads – why they’re a good option for small business, how to use them effectively, and some of the ways to optimize the campaigns. And one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with Katie is that too many small and midsize companies are spending a lot of money on PPC without really linking it to activity that brings in profitable business. And that’s just a waste of precious time and resource.

[Intro Music]

Steve Cummins: Today I’m talking to Katie Kingsbury, who is senior Account Manager at RevKey. And RevKey's focus is as an agency specializing in Google Ads and digital ad measurement. Katie, thanks for joining me on the Marketing Mix.

Katie Kingsbery: Hi. So nice to be here, Steve.

Steve Cummins: I think everyone listening has a pretty good idea of Google Ads. Everyone searches on Google, they see the ads come up. But just to get us started, can you give us some background on how Google ads work and some of the mechanics behind them.

Katie Kingsbery: There are two main things really to know about what Google Ads is. And the first part of it is quite simply, it is the paid portion of the search engine results page. To give you an example from my own life recently I was googling first communion dresses, so my daughter's making her first communion.

And I Googled that and I got a number of different links and entries and the first few ones had a small - you probably don't usually notice this, but a small sponsored text right above it. Those are paid ads. And then as you scroll down the rest of the page, you'll see obviously a number of different images, other entries, locations, other information that Google is providing to you as a user.

Those are all unpaid or what we would consider ‘Organic’ results. And those are not paid ads. So again, Google Ads is the paid portion of the search engines results page. 

The second thing to know is that the ads that you see on your screen are all the results of a live auction system, meaning that there are multiple advertisers, all in real time bidding to appear for your search.

So, and what you actually see on the screen, the ads that you're seeing, are the result of how much an advertiser is willing to pay, so price, and how relevant Google decides that their ad and their website is to what you are searching. So it is the combination of price and relevancy that wins the auction.

Steve Cummins: Fantastic. And I think right there you’ve brought up something that a lot of people don't realize. It's not a case of having the best ad, or the best product I should say, and therefore you get the best ad placement. But there is this auction going on behind the scenes.

The number of times I've had conversations with,  VPs of sales or CEOs where it's “why aren't we ranking number one on this thing?” It's like, ‘well, our ads have got to get better. We're working on the webpage quality, by the way, do you want to be paying a hundred bucks for every one of these ads that that gets. 

So I think that that's an important part of it So I think digital ads primarily, I would say, Google or Facebook is where a lot of small businesses start when they first decide they're going to spend some money on marketing. How have you seen it work for these types of companies?

And maybe what are some of the pitfalls that you see early on?

Katie Kingsbery: It can work really well for small businesses. I find that small businesses mostly don't have the budgets to appear, say, for multiple radio spots or to buy out a giant front page ad on the Wall Street journal.com or New York Times, or something of that nature.

But because Google Ads is much more scalable and very targeted, you can spend a lot less and really finely tune your audience and still see a return on investment.

Steve Cummins: And in terms of fine tuning that audience, what are some of the levers that you can pull to make sure, because particularly for a lot of small businesses, they’re either very targeted geographically or maybe a very specific type of audience. 

Katie Kingsbery: So a lot of people don't realize, it's keyword targeted. First and foremost, Google search. And this gets very confusing with Google ads because we're not talking about -  50 years ago you'd go to your,  main paper and you'd say, I want a front page ad, and they'd say it costs a hundred dollars or something.

That would be, that's just what it costs. But with Google there's a number, like you said, of different levers and the first part of it is that you would bid on keywords that approximate searches. So for instance, if I were working on behalf of a financial advisor, I may might bid on the keyword financial advisor near me, and if somebody searched something close to that, maybe it was financial planner near me, even though it's not exact, your ad still might appear for that search.

So we want to find the right keywords that are corresponding to the right searches for you to appear on. But then beyond the keywords and the search part of it, we can also target the ‘who’ of who's searching. So that's the demographic information you might think about. And that might entail household income, it might entail other types of content that user might be interested in.

So for instance, maybe you're looking for somebody who already, with that financial advisor example, somebody who's interested in reading about business related contents or is already - Google  has noticed - is already interested in personal finance. So there are a variety of different ways we can target that person.

Geographically, income based demographically as well as the search.

Steve Cummins: So, so quite a few levers to pull.

Katie Kingsbery: Yeah. 

Steve Cummins: So what are some of the other basic things that people should look at? So, we're talking about audience, but there's a lot of other things that you have to think about when you're first setting up an ad campaign. So, from your perspective, what are the basics that you have to pay attention to?

Katie Kingsbery: I think it's really, you want to understand what the core aspects of your business are that you want to appear for, to advertise for, and then I think there are two main things after that. One is keyword selection and the second is ad copy. So keyword selection is really important because there are so many different searches on any given topic and you don't want to appear for all of them.

You really want to capture the user that is most interested in taking action, that's where you're going to see the biggest return on investment. There are some really large advertisers with huge budgets who are interested in using search as more of a branding vehicle. So for instance, going back to that financial advisor type of client I might be working with. There might be an advertiser who wants to appear for a search. That's “what is an Roth IRA”. So somebody who's just starting out and doing research. 

For us at RevKey, at our agency, w're interested in getting you that ROI. We don't want you appearing for that search because that's somebody who's not about to take action.

That's someone who's just trying to figure it out. So instead of bidding on what is a Roth IRA, we want to bid on that keyword or that search that is ‘find a financial planner near me’, or financial planner in Pittsburgh or wherever it is that you're lo located. because that person has already decided they need this type of service.

They're about to make a phone call or sign up or take some kind of action. That's where you're going to see the return on investment. So that's the first part, is the keyword selection. And the ad copy is also really important. That's where you get to showcase your brands. You want to capture that user's attention.

You want to give them just enough salient information to get them to click on that ad and get to your website. So those are, I would say, the first two things to think about.

Steve Cummins: Makes sense. So when you talk about the keywords, my mind immediately goes to one of my favorite things, which is the marketing funnel.

Katie Kingsbery: Yes.

Steve Cummins: and I think it's a great place for a lot of companies to start out when they're first putting their marketing strategy together. So when you're talking about keyword selection, It sounds as though you're saying you're really not interested in Google ads for the awareness phase of the funnel. You're really looking at capturing people once they're further down.

Now, I would say in the B2B world, there's an argument that says you actually want to be advertising in that awareness phase. Because if you are the first brand or the first product that somebody thinks about and comes across when they start that process, then they're more likely to come to you as they come further down the funnel.

Katie Kingsbery: I'm not knocking awareness. I'm a big believer in that you need awareness and brand awareness is absolutely part of it. I just think there's a difference maybe in the type of agency you might be working with. And so RevKey is an agency where we tend to work with, not exclusively, but with, many of our clients have smaller budgets, so they're not looking to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on Google. They're looking to spend $20 a day. So they just don't have the budget to be advertising at the top of the funnel.

They're really looking for that ROI. And so that's what we're focused on. For example, at my time at Google, I worked with huge financial advisors while I was a sales rep at Google. So one of my biggest clients was Vanguard TD Ameritrade. They were actually looking at, we need to capture the top of the funnel as well as that bottom of the funnel.

And of course there are other avenues to that beyond just Google search. But Google search and Google Ads was an important part of that. So I think it's really just a difference in both budget and the type of advertisers you might be working with. But I will say though Steve, even advertisers with smaller budgets, even when we're focused on…I'm working on behalf of a independent financial advisor, say out of like a Pittsburgh or a smaller city, they still, even though we're focused on, primarily on getting them an ROI, they are still benefiting from that brand association.

So I am working to try to track, they’re getting five conversions that gives them X amount of revenue. They've spent this amount and they're getting a five to one return on investment, or eight to one for that. But they're still getting almost this ancillary effect of users who are calling them, who are saying, oh, I saw you on Google, and they maybe went away and thought about it and then called him.

I'm not picking that up in my data. They're still getting, it's still because of our ads and they're still getting the benefit of it. So it exists at multiple budget levels, but we're not necessarily always focused on targeting for brand awareness.

Steve Cummins: That's a fair point.  I fell into the trap of thinking that you can optimize it so perfectly that people will only see it when you're sort of further down in the process. But the reality is, you are going to, you are going to see it along the way as well. 

You mentioned that you spent some time inside the beast at Google which I'm sure was very different to being on the other side now at RevKey.

One of the, one of the things I liked about RevKey when I first came across them, so you have this line that you say you're counting revenue, not clicks, which I think is really important because a lot of people,  there's these vanity metrics, we've talked about this in the past, where an agency or, or a digital marketer can show all these great numbers that make it look fantastic. You

had all these people visit your website, had all these people download this ebook. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to grow your business. So,  in the role that you take on at RevKey to help your clients,  how do you approach that to make sure that it's not just a case of, ‘ we're running ads versus we are running ads that are generating revenue for you’.

Katie Kingsbery: Yeah, I think that comes down to,  first of all, we're optimizing for leads specifically. So when I look at an account and I'm evaluating its success, I'm not evaluating its success based on click through rate, for instance, which is a nice metric, but it's not the bottom line. I'm really evaluating its success based on how many people are getting to your website and taking action that is valuable to you.

And if we can put a dollar number on that even better so that we can really calculate what your exact return on investment is. I would say the vanity metrics are not the primary thing any client should care about. They are directional though. So they're not useless. It is the way you frame it to a client.

So for instance, one, what you might consider to be a vanity metric is that we can see is how much time are after a user clicks on your ad, how much time are they spending on your site? And you might say, well, That's kind of vanity. Like, do I really care if they're spending 20 seconds as opposed to 70 seconds?

And it's kind of like you don't really care. But it tends to be the case that if you see someone spending 70 seconds as opposed to five seconds, that they're much more likely to take action. Again, it's not, those metrics for the sake of those metrics is not how I'd portray it to a client.

It's how those metrics might impact what their bottom line is. So I think a lot of it is, what are you optimizing towards? You're optimizing towards leads, but how do you frame the rest of the data for the client? So you want to frame it in the context of their return on investment.

Steve Cummins: I like that way of looking at it. because I'm normally dismissive of vanity metrics. The point you make is they're not really vanity metrics if you put some thought behind them. It’s not time on page, it's what is time on page actually getting you

Katie Kingsbery: Yeah, they're not useless, but they should be looked at in a context.

Steve Cummins: I like that. So the other phrase you use is an action that's valuable to you and that can mean many things. And if you ask a sales person versus a marketing person versus someone on the board, they'll probably give you a different answer. But I'd love to get some examples from you of either specific examples or how you work with a client to work out what those points of value are.

Katie Kingsbery: Yeah, that can be different depending on the client and depending on the type of business. So I'll give you two different examples. One is from, actually many of our clients are therapists. So we have a lot of clients in the psychology, testing, psychology, talk therapy space, which is very interesting world.

And the action that they most want to see is a potential client reaching out to them to sign up to see a therapist for their practice. So that would entail somebody calling them. Typically a call that lasts more than 60 seconds is where you're really going to see someone who's not just calling and then hanging up, but somebody who's actually talking to you and saying, “I would like to make an appointment”.

The other type of action would be,  usually signing a contact form. So there's a lead capture form on the site. Usually the group therapist, the therapy practice is looking for that person's basic information, what they're coming in for. And then from there, once they get that lead, it's up to the client to hopefully turn that lead into an actual client, somebody who's now a patient of theirs. So that's an example from the therapy universe. I also have worked with independent financial advisors and that might look a little bit different what they're tracking, obviously. Somebody reaching out to say, I'd like to come in and meet with you as a prospect is super valuable, but it's a much bigger decision actually moving your 401 k or all of your assets to this financial advisor than it might be to say, you know what? I'm going to call this therapy provider and go see somebody about my anxiety next week.

For that financial advisor, you might, you obviously want to track, track that prospect, that lead, but you might also want to track that person who's going through a website and signing up for your newsletter.

So that's somebody who is probably not officially a lead yet, but they will be soon. So again, you might think of that as you're kind of working the funnel. So you're not just capturing the very bottom of the funnel because you're not going to have probably as many of those leads because they're so valuable.

But you might have more of the tier above, which is maybe consideration.

Steve Cummins: And do you try and assess an actual value to those or do you look at it in terms of, ‘10 of those as newsletter subscription leads is worth one of the Contact Us leads’. 

Katie Kingsbery: We do try to ascribe an actual value. Again, this is where the client's knowledge of their own business is really helpful for them to know, okay, what's the percentage of my kind of leads that turn into actual customers or patients or whatever that may be. So we do try to ascribe a value. It is a little harder, say with that newsletter capture.

It's still very valuable. But we would definitely want to try to work with a client to figure out it's not as numerically valuable as say that person who's calling you to say, I want an appointment next week to talk about moving my 401k, but maybe we give it 50% of that.

We try to give it some value, which is again, based on their knowledge of their own business, but the better metrics that they can provide to us, the better we're going to be able to manage and optimize their ad campaign. 

Steve Cummins: Right, and that's how you get it away from being a vanity metric when you can actually assign a value to it. The other thing that you mentioned, which is very near and dear to my heart because a lot of companies are e-commerce companies, so it's very easy for them to track from somebody clicking on an ad to going to their website, to putting something in a shopping cart and purchasing it.

So that is relatively easy in the world of digital advertising. For most of the companies I work with, it's an offline purchase process. So similar to how you were describing, it's book a call with a salesperson, book a demo  send me a quote, right? You mentioned one of your conversions was somebody  calling up and making an appointment or having a, a phone discussion. How do you link that offline interaction to the online spend so that you can justify the value creation.

Katie Kingsbery: Yeah, there are a number of different ways that we do that. The first is still trackable in the same sense, really as like almost an e-commerce would be. So for instance, again, with that financial advisor, there's a form capture on his site for somebody potentially to go there to say, here's my name and information and I would like to meet with you, and that the message gets sent into them, and I can track that technically with something called Google Tag Manager, which will be able to read their website and see, okay, that's a form, and that form was just submitted, and then that information gets funneled all the way over into Google Ads for me. So that's one way of doing it. As far as the calls, that's more offline.

Thing that you were talking about, and we havea program that we use at RevKey, which I know probably other agencies do it at as well, which is called call tracking metrics. There are other similar platforms. Which is very interesting. It will take your website and your actual phone number and it will give you a dummy number, essentially a tracking number that dynamically replaces your actual number on your website.

And so essentially it still gets to you, but it routes through this company call tracking metrics and records that call so we can see on our end. How many calls did you really get as a result of an ad? How long were they, did an actual person pick it up or did it go to voicemail? So we have a lot of information, but that's all done.

Again, from a technical standpoint. It's connecting that call tracking metrics platform to your website, which we do for clients all the time.

Steve Cummins: All right. Very cool. That's something I'll have to look at myself. So, you build campaigns for clients, you have them up and running for a certain amount of time, and then I'm sure you want to go in and look at how do we improve this? Right? So how do you take a campaign from being good to a great campaign?

Katie Kingsbery: That's a, that's a great question and I think, I always think of it as the great campaigns are the ones that have an unbroken line of relevancy between what the user is searching for, which involves, again, that keyword selection, an ad copy that's really relevant to what that user is looking for, and a website that is really authentic and authoritative to exactly what that user is looking for.

So it's all of those things together in that unbroken line of relevancy that is going to. Make a good campaign, great. We can put together a great campaign structure for you involving the right keywords, we can utilize a really smart bidding strategy. I mean, that's a whole universe I could get into.

All the machine learning that Google has at its disposal to help us bid properly on competitively for you in certain auctions, and so we can drive really relevant traffic to your website, but unless your website is really well put together and really speaks to that potential client, you're probably not going to be that great campaign. You may be good, but you're not going to be amazing. You really need all of those things in place all at once for it to do very, very well. But when you hit all of those cylinders, it, it can be wonderful for clients. 

Steve Cummins: And the idea being that somebody puts in a search term, they see an ad that directly relates to that search term, and when they click on that ad, it takes them to a landing page or a page on the website that is talking about exactly the same thing. So for them, there's no obstacle they have to go over.

Katie Kingsbery: There's no obstacle. And it's a little bit of an art and a little bit of science. I think as far as the websites, I mean, we don't design websites obviously at RevKey. That's not our business. We can give you broad suggestions based on what we've,  we have a lot of experience with this obviously, and point you in the direction of some professionals who do really well with that.

But sometimes it's, it's not just having the content, it's also the design aspects. Are there images that kind of break up the text enough to kind of keep somebody on the page and invested and looking at it and interested. There are a lot of area aspects that go into this. Is your language clear?

Is it engaging? Is it easy for the user to take action, or is that call to action on your website a little bit hidden so they have to click around a whole bunch to figure out how to get ahold of you? There are a lot of things that go into it, but I think all of those things working together are what get you a really great campaign.

Steve Cummins: Yeah, that makes sense. So for anybody who's ever logged into a Google Ads dashboard Then probably logged out straight away. because it's a little scary. But they often have these metrics that say, oh, you could increase your clicks by 3% if you do X. And of course half of them are spending more money.

When we talked in the past, I know you've had this idea behind  being very careful whether you are really moving the needle by spending all that time to get the extra two or 3%. Any thoughts you'd like to share on that?

Katie Kingsbery: So thoughts on Google's alarming suggestions and notifications for you as you log into Google Ads For

Steve Cummins: I mean that, that's one angle. The other part is this idea of is it worth spending all that time to increase your performance by 2%, or could you be spending your time and money doing 

Katie Kingsbery: I see. Yeah, I think that's where a really good -now I'm going to plug our agency - but that's where an agency really can help you to discern what you should really be paying attention to and what you shouldn't be. 

I think with clients who are newer at this and we're still trying to really get a handle on the basics, then I usually am saying, okay, let's put the brakes on this. Let's figure out, let's get that again, that unbroken line of relevancy. Let's get all of the basics working for you, and then we can talk about. Adding that new feature that Google rolled out, increasing your budget, whatever the other suggestions are. A lot of times they do sound alarming in the interface. It can be a little scary to look at, but that's when I would start recommending those things.

Steve Cummins: I guess my recommendation to people would be to start Google Ads on your own, just so that you can see what it's all about. You get a basic understanding of, which levers you can pull, how it's set up, some of the terminology around it, because it's always tough to work with an agency if you don't have a basic level. As soon as you start getting serious about spending money on digital advertising, you have a reasonable budget, I am a fan of bringing an agency in because I think it's, first of all, as I said at the beginning, it is always changing. So you need somebody who’s only focus is to keep up to date on it.

And honestly, as a marketer, it can be a distraction. You could spend your whole time on this side of it. So if, if you were talking to a small business and they were saying, ‘Hey Katie, I'm thinking of of looking for an agency to help me with this’, and let's assume for the moment that you're not working for an agency yourself, how would you advise them to go about finding and interviewing agencies to make sure they've got the right people to work with?

Katie Kingsbery: The obvious thing is looking for an agency where they really have that expertise. And again, to plug my own agency John Sanders, who is in charge of RevKey, has an extensive background in Google ads. I do as well. I worked at Google. We have other account managers who also do, we're also considered a Google preferred partner, and that's a status that Google gives that is actually helpful for you to know, because what it means is that there are certain exams that Google has all of us take to sort of be licensed in the field that we have to stay on top of on a yearly basis.

And really it ensures that we.know the basics of what we're doing, but also that we're on top of all the additional things that Google's rolling out, which it changes pretty rapidly, so. I definitely would look for that. As far as other things though, I would always look with any agency or any person you're hiring for something like that, for price transparency, just to get a sense of them being very transparent of how they're charging you.

What's the model they're using, what services are they guaranteeing? I would be very wary of any agency or freelancer who is guaranteeing you a certain number of leads. That is generally not on the up and up because that's not how advertising works really. So if anyone's making big, bold guarantees in terms of concrete numbers, I would be very suspicious of that.

But again, I would look for somebody who's a real handle on the expert on their expertise and the process. And is going to be very transparent with you in terms of pricing.

Steve Cummins: Yeah, I agree. The guaranteed leads, that just makes me think they've got bots set up or they're paying somewhere in eastern Europe to come in and fill out lead forms. 

Anything you can share about various pricing models?  How does a typical agency like yourselves charge, or are there certain models that you think are better than others?

Katie Kingsbery: There are a couple different ones. The way RevKey charges, we charge a separate fee for a campaign setup because there is a lot of work that goes into the technical setup. There's a lot of upfront work that needs to be done for that. And then we charge a monthly rate. That's just based on our expertise and the amount of time that we consider that we're going to be spending on your campaign every month.

I like that model because it's just reflective of the effort that we're putting into every single client that we take. There are other pricing models there. some PPC agencies will take a percentage of the amount that you're spending on Google Ads. I don't love that, honestly, because it incentivizes, I think getting you to spend a lot more money. Right. So certainly for small businesses, I would not recommend that. And then there are other agencies that might charge you hourly. I think those honestly tend to be more bigger branding agencies, ad agencies who would charge you hourly. But that is another model too, though,

Steve Cummins: I agree with you. I think you've got to make sure the incentives are aligned and if you're doing it in the model where you're charging for your services. Basically you have to be successful with the results to keep getting paid versus, well, if we increase their spend by our fees go up 10%. 

Steve Cummins: 

So we've mentioned a couple of times or I have that  this is something that's always changing. You got to keep up on it. So do you have any favorite resources,  blogs, websites podcasts that you follow?

Katie Kingsbery: I'm definitely a nerd that way. I really, I like reading about this. At some point I really became weirdly interested in all this. Just in my free time I'll read stuff like about the industry, but I read kind of what I consider would consider sort of the trades about the, so Media Post is one Adage has just general content about the ad industry and about the digital media specifically. Search engine land basically is all the latest updates on anything Google is doing, whether that's organic or paid ads. So those are I guess the trade publications, but I also really like some journalists or just content providers.

So Rand Fishkin, who is somebody I know that you also follow, but he's great. Kara Swisher, I don't know if you know her, but she's a journalist who kind of made her name, I think now she works for the New York Times, but for a long time she was at the Wall Street Journal and she ran a segment of the Wall Street Journal called All Things Digital.

And that was a great hub of just any information about the digital ecosystem. And I think she's a really astute observer of the tech world. And I like the Wall Street Journal partly because I work there, s, I still have my login and I read all their business coverage.

Steve Cummins: Some good resources there. I will, we'll put some of those in the show notes.

This is the marketing mix. So we have to add a little bit of the mix into this. If you and I had had this conversation over a cocktail, at a conference, we're having a drink, we're talking about this stuff, what would be your drink of choice?

Katie Kingsbery: I do love Flavored seltzers. And so anything bubbly, and I love coffee, so I don't know if you'd really have a cappuccino at or espresso at a happy hour, but I adore that. 

Steve Cummins: So really the question should be next time we're, we're at a conference and we're at a coffee bar, that's when we're going to be having this

Well, very good. Well, thank you for for sharing your expertise with us today. I’ve really enjoyed our chat and I look forward to talking again soon.

Katie Kingsbery: Thanks Steve. Thanks so much.