Steve talks with Joan McGeough, Chief Marketing Officer at the DAK Group, to discuss their recent rebranding project and the crucial role customer research played in informing their decisions.
The DAC Group is looking to revitalize their visual identity and validate their messaging to better resonate with their target audience. Joan shares her experiences from the rebranding journey, from selecting the right agency, to getting feedback from their clients and stakeholders, and using that insight to develop a fresh visual style.
This episode sheds light on the intricacies of rebranding, and the pivotal role of customer research in driving a successful branding project.
Key Takeaways:
- Customer research was the foundation of the rebranding process, allowing the company to gain insights into how they were perceived and validate their own self-perception.
- The selection process for the external agency involved referrals, assessing credentials, and evaluating personal fit, ensuring alignment in understanding the company's vision and conducting research upfront.
- S3, the agency chosen, embraced the idea of incorporating research as the foundation for creative elements such as design, color, and messaging.
- The research findings pleasantly surprised the DAK Group by affirming that their core values and strategic approach were indeed perceived as they had intended.
- Joan underscores the importance of obtaining authentic feedback to maintain authenticity and ensure the company's messaging truly resonates with customers.
Steve talks with Joan McGeough, Chief Marketing Officer at the DAK Group, to discuss their recent rebranding project and the crucial role customer research played in informing their decisions.
The DAC Group is looking to revitalize their visual identity and validate their messaging to better resonate with their target audience. Joan shares her experiences from the rebranding journey, from selecting the right agency, to getting feedback from their clients and stakeholders, and using that insight to develop a fresh visual style.
This episode sheds light on the intricacies of rebranding, and the pivotal role of customer research in driving a successful branding project.
Key Takeaways:
- Customer research was the foundation of the rebranding process, allowing the company to gain insights into how they were perceived and validate their own self-perception.
- The selection process for the external agency involved referrals, assessing credentials, and evaluating personal fit, ensuring alignment in understanding the company's vision and conducting research upfront.
- S3, the agency chosen, embraced the idea of incorporating research as the foundation for creative elements such as design, color, and messaging.
- The research findings pleasantly surprised the DAK Group by affirming that their core values and strategic approach were indeed perceived as they had intended.
- Joan underscores the importance of obtaining authentic feedback to maintain authenticity and ensure the company's messaging truly resonates with customers.
The Marketing Mix: Episode 7
“How Customer Research can guide a Rebrand Project” | A conversation with Joan McGeough
Steve Cummins:
Today I'm joined by Joan McGeough, the CMO at the DAC Group, which works with mid-market companies, often entrepreneurs, family businesses, on mergers and acquisitions. Joan was also the founder of the New Jersey chapter of MENG, which was the marketing executive networking group. And today we're going to talk about a rebranding project that Joan's working on, and particularly how they've been using customer research to inform some of the decisions. Joan thanks for joining me on the marketing mix.
Joan McGeough:
Thank you so much, Steve, for having me. I appreciate it.
Steve Cummins:
Before we dive in to the main topic, maybe you could just share a bit of your background and your marketing journey.
Joan McGeough:
Sure, happy to. Marketing, business development, general management, that's been my whole career. And I've had a lot of diversity in my career with the types of companies that I've worked for between manufacturing and services. And it speaks to the core that it doesn't matter what you're marketing, what matters is that you stick to the marketing principles of understanding who your customer is and being able to give them the information that they want in the right way. to help them move the decision forward to buy whatever product or service is. I've been lucky to have marketed to, as I said, a real diversity of companies. So I've marketed things like multimillion dollar hospital equipment to hospitals and doctors. I've marketed greeting cards for UNICEF, a not-for-profit. I was really privileged to be able to set up the division that sold those greeting cards to businesses. They had been selling to consumers for years, but I started the division that was exclusively business to business. It was the first time it had been done and it proved not only very lucrative, but a lot of other not-for-profits followed us, followed our footsteps years later. My time at Allstate International was a company that sells exclusively to law firms. I was there at a time when there was a lot of change. I don't know if you know this, But for a long time, it was illegal for law firms to market. And it just happened in the 1990s that it became legal. It took them a while to pick up on what actually marketing was, that at Allstate, we were at the cutting edge of developing products and services for them to take on this new initiative. Then I moved to a list brokerage company. That was an organization that worked with retailers and catalogers such as Nordstrom, Saks Fifth Avenue, LL Bean. And we created the first combination of a service offering of email marketing and catalog distribution, again, at a time when that hadn't been done before. Had a few other steps in between, but right now I am currently at the DAC Group, as you mentioned, as the Chief Marketing Officer. and our clients are middle market business owners that are either looking to grow through acquisition or to have a full or partial sale of their business.
Steve Cummins:
All right, very good, thanks. I was finding, it's one of the interesting things about marketing careers. They tend to bounce around, or certainly they can, if you're interested to bounce around different industries, different types of companies. And I think it's really interesting what you said at the beginning that so much of it is about understanding your customers, right? Because we often have this conversation as marketers, ‘ah, people don't really understand what we do’. But I think understanding your customers is pretty much the core of any of the marketing disciplines.
The main thing I want to talk about today is this rebranding project that we've been talking about prior to this. And I understand it's due to launch in September. So I'm guessing you're going to have a busy summer getting everything ready. I know that the DAK Group's been around since 1984. When I look at the current branding, it looks very strong, reliable, everything you'd expect from a financial services company. So what was the main driver for the rebrand and why now?
Joan McGeough:
So yes, the company was established in 1984. So it’s been around a long time. The last rebranding was in the 1990s. So thank you for feeling that it was strong. Yes, it is, but it's also a little dated visually. So we wanted to really update the visual aspects so that it was more contemporary with today. And we wanted to validate the messaging and the profile of who we were.
Steve Cummins:
So the rebranding project for you, can you just talk through the scope and everything that you were trying to achieve and what you were trying to cover with the rebrand?
Joan McGeough:
The way we look at branding, the way I look at branding is that it is every experience that our audience has with us, regardless of where they are having it. So it's how they see us, the experience that they have when they interact with us, either personally or on the website, the feeling that they get as a result of looking and listening to our materials, what they hear. It's that impression that's formed as a result of their experience with us, whatever it is. So it's totally comprehensive. It touches all of the senses.
We wanted to start at a very basic foundation, which is what do people really think of us? We talk to ourself and as marketers and as executives, you're always talking to ourselves what we think we are, how we think others are perceiving us, but we really wanted to find out from the grassroots, either validate that we are what we say we are, or find out that maybe people perceive us a little bit differently. So that was the start of it. So we, so market research was step one in the branding process.
Steve Cummins:
You mentioned you used an external agency. Can you talk us through the process of how you decided what type of agency you would need and then, any thoughts on the selection process?
Joan McGeough:
That in itself was a project. So we knew a couple of things going in. First, we wanted someone that did branding and had some good credentials. So the first step that I did was reached out to my network and see who they would recommend. And then from that, I got over 25 to 30 different recommendations. And then I did my own initial research just going on their websites, kind of narrowing it down a little bit and ultimately interviewed about five or six different agencies.
And some of the criteria was: One, I didn't want them to be just professional services. A lot of times like professional services just stick to that. And I wanted somebody that provided outside, real business to business experience. Also, they needed to have business to business experience because that's critical. Our only audience is business to business. I needed them to really understand that we were looking to get to the foundation. of what our clients and our centers of influence thought about us. So I wanted someone that had that experience of doing the research upfront, not all creative agencies have that or even want to do it. So that helped narrow down the group that they had somebody internally that could do it.
And then, and this is really an important factor. because we had a number of agencies that really fit that main criteria. But the next criteria was personal fit. Myself and my team had to be able to work well with them. So the agency that said to me, ‘well, we'll have a weekly meeting, so we appreciate if you save all your questions for the weekly meeting’. They were definitely a turn off because if we had a meeting Thursday at 10 o'clock in the morning and I a question at two o'clock, I want to pick up the phone and ask the question. I don't want to have to wait for a whole week. So they kind of self-selected out to be able to fit with my style. So a lot of different elements went into it.
And of course, referrals, you know, I needed to see the work that they had done for the people that referred us and just make sure that it was, not the same because everybody's different, but it had a lot of the elements that we were looking for. So the agency that we selected, which I can tell you is S3 from Boonton, New Jersey, they really met all the criteria. They really embraced the idea of including research as the foundation, because from that, their creative team, which splits out between design and color, could really take the words and the feeling and the sense of the profile that was created, and use images and color that reflect that profile. And then on the copy side, they could use words and messaging that apply to us.
Steve Cummins:
.How do you build out that selection process? Do you start with an RFP or a creative brief that you send out to people? Is it just a getting to know you session? Any thoughts on how you structure that?
Joan McGeough:
I look at it as a funnel. So I described for you, I asked for referrals, you know, so from the 30-ish that I got, and as I narrowed it down to five, and then I think I narrowed it down to three, and that was after having an initial conversation with them, then I did send out an RFP with certain criteria that we were looking for. And then as a result of that, had more of an in-depth conversation. And then after I had narrowed it down to two, then I brought in additional member of my team wanted that second opinion and that that's how we made the selection.
Steve Cummins:
Gotcha. So, so if we think about this in two phases, so you have the, the customer survey or the stakeholder survey part of it. And then that rolled into the design and the style guide and what have you. So from the research part of it, what was the most interesting or surprising result that came out of that?
Joan McGeough:
Hmm. Surprising, pleasantly surprising. We have what we call our core values, right? We want our clients to be really happy. Actually, we call it client elation. That is most important. We always say that we look at things a little bit differently than our competition, that we're very strategic, and that we're extremely honest.
So those are the things that we have been talking about ourselves. And I really looked at this exercise to either validate that or tell us who we really are. And so what was really exciting, was the fact that really the feedback that we got was that is still who we are perceived to be. We heard from a, it was someone that was a client that we had actually recommended, ‘you know what? Now is that the right time to sell your business? You need to do X, Y, Z. It'll take you about six months. If you do that, you know, you'll be in a better position to really get that maximum value for your company’. So essentially we said, you know, we're not going to, that was not the right time. And so, you know, his comment was, ‘anybody else would have just taken my money now and brought me out to market, but you didn't’. And as it turns out, he ultimately came back and we were ultimately able to get a higher value for the company. But the point was, we're not going to do something for the client unless we really feel good about it. So what came back was, what we've been saying to ourselves is the perception that people have and maybe even a little bit better.
Steve Cummins:
That’s a nice feeling because you know you and I have both come into a lot of different companies in our careers and you're always… I feel like there's three parts to it, right? There's what you perceive of the company before you join whether it's a well-known company or you've just done your research before you get in there; then there's what you're told and you know it's part of the onboarding process or the interview process and then the third part which is often the terrifying part is then starting to talk to customers and thinking ‘oh wow there's a big disconnect.’ So having been within the company for nine years, I could see how that would be a relief that it's like, ‘Oh, I haven't drank the Kool-Aid. This really is it’.
Joan McGeough:
Absolutely, and I really thought it was critical to have that piece because, you know, we want to be speaking the truth, right? We want to be our authentic self all the time. And so without really getting that feedback, how can you really be sure what it is? So I think that was the most important step of the process.
Steve Cummins:
I can imagine it could go the other way though, that you could spend this money. The results come back and say,’ yep, we were right. We know where it's at’. And then the CFO coming to you and say, well, why did we waste the money doing that? Because we already knew the answer. Did you get any of that?
Joan McGeough:
No, but that was absolutely a fear of mine.
it was money well spent, money well spent.
Steve Cummins:
Sounds like it. Yeah. It's nice to get that authentic feedback and realize that as a marketer, what you've been telling people has actually resonated. So that's a nice feeling.
So the second part of it, so you see had the feedback from the research. And then the same agency S3 then took that to start to build or refresh the brand and the design and the messaging.
Joan McGeough:
Well, first I'm going to start with your, just to confirm, it's not a refresh. And I want to make that clear because, you know, a refresh is, ‘oh, switch the color, do that’. No, we really wanted to start fresh, brand new, bold, bold and different. You know, where we were back in the 90s when the current branding and imaging was developed is a much different place than where we are today. So we really want our brand in all of the component parts to make a statement about who we are to the market.
Steve Cummins:
Okay, so this isn't a refresh, this is a complete rebrand. So then between your team and the agency, you had to take this research, these findings, and turn it into the visual brand, the messaging, the style guides. So talk me through that process and how that went.
Joan McGeough:
Sure. It was very methodic, which I really like. So the agency took the results of all of the survey work, put it together, and from there created kind of a persona of who the DAC Group is, what it is that we stand for, and the words that define us. And then from there, they did a color exploration. And there's the whole color science where certain colors emote or have people emote certain feelings.
So we wanted to make sure that the color choices that we use really were reflective of the emotions that we wanted viewers to see. That said, there was a one caveat that I have, and it also might be an interesting note for you, but 90% of all investment banks and law firms use blue in their logo.
Usually dark blue. All bankers always want blue in their logo. So my one caveat was we are not going to use blue. And the reason is because we're not like every other banker. We are different and we're proud of our difference and we want it to be in every touch of who we are. So we are not going to be using blue. That's the only little spoiler alert that I'll give.
Steve Cummins:
My next one was going to be, so what color did you pick? But fair enough. So, so I don't know, could we call this the IBM effect? Is that the idea that the people think IBM blue is, you know, reliable and solid and so that's where everybody wants to go. And it is interesting. I've often noticed if, like, if you're going to a trade show or you look at a sponsor page and you look at all of the logos, and I would say at least two thirds of them are either red or blue.
Steve Cummins:
And it would be interesting actually to break it down and see if it is different sectors.
Joan McGeough:
it really popped when we did…oh, one thing I really didn't touch on was really the competitive analysis that was also part of this, and also part of when the agency was putting our profile together, but specifically looking at our competitors and how many were blue.
And dark green and burgundy are the next.
Steve Cummins:
The color thing is interesting because it seemed really hot for a while. I remember HubSpot was the orange thing, Marketo did purple. A lot of these marketing companies trying to establish themselves picked the outlandish color and I guess that sort of had its moment but I remember going to a Marketo conference a few years ago in San Francisco. And, there were people there in purple suits, you know, they had purple shoelaces, like they really wanted to represent the brand.
I don't think that works so well in financial institutions, but, if you pick a really strong color, and actually one of my clients did a rebrand about a year or two ago and they picked purple. And I think it's a really smart choice because it really does make you stand out. And I'm not going to ask you if your color is purple.
I really do think it's a, it's an interesting element of the branding. So long as you're doing it for a good reason and not just because, ‘Hey, purple is my favorite color’.
Joan McGeough:
Yeah, we're not into the fad because, well, since we haven't done branding in, I don't know, 30 years, you know, we want it to last.
Steve Cummins:
Right, it can't be the fad. And then 30 years, well maybe 30 years from now it would come around again.
So once you had this visual style established, did you do any testing? Did you go back to some of the folks you'd done the original research with and ask them what they thought about it?
Joan McGeough:
No, no, we did not do that. We did it internally, myself and the CEO, and we pulled a few other people in, but we just wanted to keep it to a close group. And then working with the agency, we felt that all of the rationale that went into the choice was really sound.
Steve Cummins:
Yeah, and I think that makes sense, because if you did go to a focus group just with the end result, then it just becomes a preference game again, right? ‘I like that. I don't like that’, because they haven't seen all of the research. So plus it takes some of the fun out of the surprise when you when you do
Steve Cummins:
the big unveiling.
Joan McGeough:
Yes, exactly. And it's a color combination, I will say.
So while that was happening, the graphic side of the house was developing that. And once we finalized on the color combination, then the copywriting side of the house was able to take the foundational work from who our persona is, tie in the color and then go in. We didn't really have any major messaging changes, but we did strengthen the message with certain words a little bit stronger.
Steve Cummins:
Was that intentionally at the beginning of the scope that you weren't planning to or was it once you've done all this research you thought well actually our current messaging is pretty sound?
Joan McGeough:
Yeah, it was. No, we went in totally open. We went in really saying, let's see what the research tells us and we will follow it. But as I had said earlier, when we got the feedback from our constituents that they were really in tune with who we thought we were, the bulk of it - the heart and soul of it - is really. the same. In some areas, we might have strengthened the wording a little bit more, maybe pivoted a little bit, you know, like another 20 degrees. But in general, we are who we thought we were.
So that was a good thing.
Steve Cummins:
Absolutely. So you've got a couple of months before the big day. What do you think you're going to be most worried about on the day of the launch?
Joan McGeough:
Oh, well, I could tell you so far, you know, once the logo has been done, final. Check. The messaging done, Check. But now we have to talk about the execution. So we have, thank goodness, finalized on the basic core pieces, the letterhead, business card, presentation folders, the core pieces. Check for the most part. But now it's the website. So once the branding was done, we immediately rolled into website. And that also is a complete new from scratch. Our current website is more than a decade old. We'll just say that. So we need to redo everything.
My biggest concern is, okay, that day in September that I can't wait. even though everything will be I’s dotted and T's crossed is, just hoping that website is up and ready to go. That's really my big concern, as is anyone's concern that's ever done a website.
Steve Cummins:
Exactly. I'm breaking into a cold sweat here just thinking about it myself because I've done them and yeah that last day where it goes live is a little scary. And a new website is a big project in itself, and you're doing it here as a part of an overall project so I give you a lot of credit for taking this all on.
Joan McGeough:
Thank you. And you know, the question was asked, well, we have the new logo. Why don't we just put it on the put it on the website? Why can't we do that?
But no, because it would not be the brand, because, when you have an old website with old functionality and then you have this new brand, even though the messaging is the same. I don't want to put it on, you know, an old clunker.
Steve Cummins:
I think it would cheapen it, right? I mean, there's going to be a lot of excitement behind this. People, as soon as you announce the brand, people are going to go to your website to see what it's all about.
Joan McGeough:
Exactly.
We want that to be consistent. And the whole user experience is not as good as it could be. I mean, it's not horrible, but when we hit the ground with our new look and our new messaging, we want everything to tick and tie.
Omnichannel. We want that perfect omnichannel experience.
Steve Cummins:
Right. Well, and that's it. At the beginning of the conversation, you were describing, you know, marketing as being about the overall experience. And that's whether you're on the website, whether you're talking to somebody, I think that that's a critical part of it.
This podcast is for founders and owners of small businesses. For somebody like that, who's about to embark in a rebranding project, any words of advice?
Joan McGeough:
Hmm, words of advice.
Steve Cummins:
Other than don't do it!
Joan McGeough:
No, no. Do it!
But be smart and realize it's more than just the logo. Realize that the branding is everything that your client experiences with you. And not every, I mean, maybe everybody's not going to want to invest. for the whole nine yards, but they should really be careful as they think about where to spend their money in the right places so that the audience gets the right impression at the critical points.
And also make sure you're using somebody that's had experience doing it, an agency that you've vetted. That you've seen their work, that you're comfortable working with. You have to have that good comfort level.
So, you know, it's the details of how the agency that you use, how they do their work as well.
Steve Cummins:
Yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned at the beginning that you founded the New Jersey chapter of MENG, the Marketing Executives Networking Group. That's actually how we first met, I think, at one of those meetings. And I know that parent organization was taken over by the AMA a few years ago. A similar thing happened with the BMA, the Business Marketing Association that I was involved with.
What are your thoughts on the value of these groups? There seems to be a demise at the moment, and obviously COVID had a big impact, but I think even before that, those groups were struggling. Any thoughts on whether there's still validity to that, or what you see replacing that?
Joan McGeough:
Great question because you know my heart is broken. Not just because I founded the New Jersey chapter, but because of the value that it brought to me personally, as well as everybody that was a member. I mean, we had over 150 members here in New Jersey. Everybody walked out of that meeting, having listened to a speaker that they learned something from, that they could implement that day. And I learned a lot as a result of that. And I also made a lot of good connections and friends and clients.
Do I think that it could be coming back? You know, the interesting thing is, as a senior marketer like yourself, right, you and I have spoken about how we really miss it. And I've spoken to many, actually anybody that was part of that group always says how much they miss it because we really learned a lot. And it's also a peer group, an opportunity for senior marketers to talk to each other, that same language that you don't get when you're dealing with your team internally.
So I don't think it's dead yet. I just think it's going to take a little bit of time for people to feel comfortable. And I don't think it's health anymore. I think people are now just used to working from their home. So it's going to be a mental thing as well.
Steve Cummins:
I think it is. I've done these virtual groups, which I'm sure you have, and it's just not the same.
Joan McGeough:
It's not the same.
Steve Cummins:
It’s better than nothing, but I don't think you have that rapport. You don't get into the sort of broader conversations that you would get in person. There's no substitute for being in a room with people and just chatting. So I hope it comes back, but I do think there's a barrier. Maybe it'll be smaller, maybe it'll be a different dynamic. Yeah, I'd love to love to see some of that come back as well.
One final question. There's a few reasons I call this the marketing mix. One of it is I like to think of it as it's the kind of conversation we would have over a cocktail, or over a drink, just two marketers having a chat. So on that basis, what would be your drink of choice - could be a cocktail could be a coffee, whatever you prefer.
Joan McGeough:
Before 12, I am black coffee, straight up.
But from a cocktail perspective, I'm a Grey Goose, tonic and two limes.
Steve Cummins:
Very nice. Well, hopefully, hopefully won't be too long before we'll be at a bar and be sharing one of those between us.
Joan McGeough:
That would be great.
Steve Cummins:
Joan, thanks very much for sharing your rebranding story with us. I really appreciate the time. I will also share here now that we're through this. There's a big thunderstorm going on in central New Jersey here. I've been on one end of this dealing with thunder and lightning. Joan had a power cut in the middle of this but bounced back like a real pro. So thank you for persevering. And, I look forward to talking again soon.
Joan McGeough:
Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to chat with you. It's very kind and thank you.